tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post908101680136368624..comments2023-09-07T04:13:08.133-04:00Comments on johndegen.com: paying attentionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-40583018517030320052010-11-14T15:40:32.234-05:002010-11-14T15:40:32.234-05:00I'd like to address another fabrication of you...I'd like to address another fabrication of yours, " Without legal protection for your No Trespassing signs, anyone can rip them down and trespass at will. Worse yet, anyone can profit from their trespass on your property."<br />So without these No Trespassing Signs there's no copyright infringement. Man I don't think the Music industry will be happy with that.<br />Lets see the logic here<br />If there's a tpm and I break it, I've broken the law, if I step further and infringe I've broken the law. <br />Is it the double whammy that has you so enamored?<br />Even James Gannons example of why tpm's are needed is a total load of crap<br />"Without this condition, the technologies that enable certain business models such as ad-supported streaming (i.e. YouTube), trial software, digital rentals and previews are completely undermined. "<br />In none of those cases does is unfettered copying allowed. In every case you'd be breaking copyright for something you don't own.<br />So again if these are warning signs, then those that wish to ignore them already know there illegal intent.<br />Again tpm's only frustrate the people that support us.Gruesomehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13993466573477002853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-37049813465505381582010-11-14T13:27:55.812-05:002010-11-14T13:27:55.812-05:00John, who hasn't been blocked from commenting ...John, who hasn't been blocked from commenting on a website, just mentioning one problem I had with drm got me blocked from a pro extreme copyright website.<br />As for this mysterious list, Senator could you please point it out to me where I will gladly denounce it.Gruesomehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13993466573477002853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-4031013339419307082010-11-12T16:01:50.932-05:002010-11-12T16:01:50.932-05:00And if copyright protection isn't enough, what...And if copyright protection isn't enough, what about copyright is not enough to protect your content that you feel the need to take away consumer rights granted by copyright?Chris Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-38492036900958643002010-11-12T15:40:58.613-05:002010-11-12T15:40:58.613-05:00"What is it about market definition and segme..."What is it about market definition and segmentation that you need explained more fully?"<br /><br />Nothing really, I get that perfectly fine. That doesn't affect my argument though, which if you think it does really shows how you are not understanding my arguments.<br /><br />As for the legal protection of TPMs needed, you as a creator already have legal protection, it's called Copyright law. So it pretty much makes needing to legally protect TPMs something that is not needed since you already have protections.Chris Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-64967959165778482552010-11-12T15:38:04.726-05:002010-11-12T15:38:04.726-05:00as long as creator choices are still the focus of ...<i>as long as creator choices are still the focus of copyright law, then TPMs need legal protection.</i><br /><br />Copyright law focuses on creator choices <i>within the limits of the rights granted to them by law</i>. A creator is given certain rights by copyright law, which they can chose to enforce or to give up. There are also certain rights creators were <i>not</i> given by copyright law, and if they chose to use TPMs to grant themselves such rights, they should not gain legal protection for it. As such, there is no reason whatsoever for the lawmaker not to grant TPM protection only for the rights creators have been given, and leave people free to break TPMs if content owners chose to grab rights that don't belong to them in the first place.Pieter Hulshoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01828192402728597793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-20685027462463140442010-11-12T15:26:04.135-05:002010-11-12T15:26:04.135-05:00Chris,
Your inability to discern an explanation i...Chris,<br /><br />Your inability to discern an explanation is a very different thing from my supposed refusal to provide one. We are both commenting on MY blog, after all, on one of hundreds of postings I have made about copyright reform in Canada. <br /><br />What is it about market definition and segmentation that you need explained more fully?<br /><br />How many times do I need to explain that I believe extreme TPMs are essentially vestigial and will disappear -- at least anything approximating a "lock" certainly will?<br /><br />That they will eventually disappear, and that they are completely breakable... these things are pointless considerations in the question of whether or not they need to be protected.<br /><br />They DO need to be protected because they are creator choices over intellectual property. And as long as creators still own their intellectual property, as opposed to the copies of that IP that they sell (you do know the difference between content and its copies, right?), as long as creator choices are still the focus of copyright law, then TPMs need legal protection.<br /><br />Remove legal protection for creator choices, and you weaken the very underpinnings of copyright. Now, In know neither YOU nor Gruesome want that, but others do. My fight is with them.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04803855978550653817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-43902745031892725812010-11-12T15:25:08.835-05:002010-11-12T15:25:08.835-05:00On the note of where we can buy DRM free Bluray, I...On the note of where we can buy DRM free Bluray, I'd also like to know where we can get DRM free DVDs.Chris Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-31526944658209281792010-11-12T15:22:03.291-05:002010-11-12T15:22:03.291-05:00Dear John,
I'm sure we'd all appreciate i...Dear John,<br /><br />I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you actually answered some of the points people were making in stead of going round and round on your points of view.<br /><br />Please tell me the difference from a consumer standpoint between:<br />1. Something illegal by law, but legal if I get permission from the content owner.<br />2. Something legal by law, but for which I have to get permission from the content owner unless I want to be guilty of breaking an anti-circumvention law.<br />If this is your idea of copyright law, why have any exceptions in there at all?<br /><br /><i>Why the open format folks aren't loudly applauding TPM protection is beyond me.</i><br /><br />Open formats are not going to help me much if the content isn't made available in it by the content owners, now is it? Please tell me where I can buy a TPM free blu-ray disk with the movies I want, and I'll gladly buy them in stead of the alternative. As a consumer, I sure as hell didn't wake up one morning thinking: "I wish someone would think of a way so I could do less with the content I bought."Pieter Hulshoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01828192402728597793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-18673018294481494482010-11-12T15:04:28.791-05:002010-11-12T15:04:28.791-05:00"Keep proving my point, Chris. It's helpf..."Keep proving my point, Chris. It's helpful. "<br /><br />It's so very amusing that you think this. It really is. Makes it convenient so you don't have to actually answer questions.<br /><br />"So, if the consumer does not want to buy an e-book in a proprietary format that will keep her from transfering it to other platforms, not only does she have the "right" not to buy that e-book, but Kindle (or whomever) has suddenly provided the market with a segmented buyer just ripe for open format publishing product."<br /><br />Except for the fact that, you know, things are moving more and more towards this. Books are just one example, which yes does have some open formats. Not everyone does, nor does the fact that the consumer "has a choice" really make TPM something that needs to be legally protected (which I notice you still haven't addressed why this is needed at all).<br /><br />"Why the open format folks aren't loudly applauding TPM protection is beyond me. Could it have something to do with their own inability (or unwillingness) to pay for content?"<br /><br />Not really, it's more like lack of choice. Just because there are options doesn't make the options worth it. <br /><br />"Zero emergency... except perhaps for folks whose business model is built on not paying. Pardon me while I don't feel sorry for those folks."<br /><br />Except for consumer expectation, which pretty much is that they can do things with the things they buy that TPM prevents them form doing, which you still also have yet to address. But hey, keep on thinking I'm proving your point rather than, you know, actually trying to read what's being said.<br /><br />BTW, when are you going to tell me who TPMs actually benefit since you have yet to explain how they benefit you, as a creator, and me as a consumer? I can keep on asking this question everywhere you happen to post that I read if you decide to not address it.Chris Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-25659618998884210292010-11-12T14:42:01.598-05:002010-11-12T14:42:01.598-05:00... and around, and around.
Keep proving my point...... and around, and around.<br /><br />Keep proving my point, Chris. It's helpful. <br /><br />So, if the consumer does not want to buy an e-book in a proprietary format that will keep her from transfering it to other platforms, not only does she have the "right" not to buy that e-book, but Kindle (or whomever) has suddenly provided the market with a segmented buyer just ripe for open format publishing product. <br /><br />Why the open format folks aren't loudly applauding TPM protection is beyond me. Could it have something to do with their own inability (or unwillingness) to pay for content?<br /><br />Zero emergency... except perhaps for folks whose business model is built on not paying. Pardon me while I don't feel sorry for those folks.<br /><br />And now, let me take the opportunity to apologize for the scandalous number of typos in my last comment.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04803855978550653817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-78162775613153403612010-11-12T13:20:17.865-05:002010-11-12T13:20:17.865-05:00As for me and DRM, there are some that I'm oka...As for me and DRM, there are some that I'm okay with and other that I'm not, as I've indicated in the past about discussions with it. Doesn't mean I think that they are remotely a good thing to be protected by law in any form whatsoever.<br /><br />As for your remark about the Kindle, yeah it could be very inconveniencing of the consumer wants to switch to a different reader that can't read Amazon's kindle format at all, and they can't access their books because breaking the TPM is against the law. Or move a book they got in ePub format that's TPM protected to something their Kindle can read. You really need to do more research and put more thought into your arguments John, it's sometimes like you auto reply without thinking about the whole picture.Chris Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-89655930491542232192010-11-12T13:14:46.628-05:002010-11-12T13:14:46.628-05:00"Chris A. proves my point about TPMs in the m..."Chris A. proves my point about TPMs in the marketplace. First of all, the provide important market definition. You know what you're getting from a BluRay or Kindle product. Secondly, the market allows consumers to choose whether or not they want those products on those terms. Chris' wife is clearly okay with Kindle TPMs, while he is not. Delightful.<br /><br />I wonder if Kindle is suffering from the fact that their TPMs "frustrate" honest concumers?"<br /><br />And when the market takes away all the choices, as they ahve been moving towards since the invention of digital media? Because if you haven't noticed, the media companies are trying their best to phase out DVDs as fast as possible.<br /><br />I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that the TPM protections are a good thing for consumers at all. For creators, I notice you never answer my question about how it helps you at all, but I know you like to pick and choose what you address rather than addressing the whole thing most times.Chris Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-15543364800861441102010-11-12T12:35:22.524-05:002010-11-12T12:35:22.524-05:00Around and 'round we go.
Pieter and Gruesome ...Around and 'round we go.<br /><br />Pieter and Gruesome - I understand you disagree with my opinion on TPMs. I am not trying to convince you otherwise. I'm simply happy that the discussion is being taken more seriously in Ottawa than it is on Geist's blog.<br /><br />Gruesome, you shouldn't feel labeled or lumped into any group, especially not here. My references to free culture theorists and the copyleft should not be so oblique folks can't figure out exactly who I'm talking about. <br /><br />But I do take offense to the Sen. McCarthy references. As you should all know, I'm the only one in this discussion who has actually suffered blacklisting and censorship because of what I say about copyright.<br /><br />I am a working, professional creator and I feel I hjave an excellent relationship with the consumers of my work. I am also a consumer of culture. The emergency of consumer "rights" does not touch me in any way. <br /><br />Chris A. proves my point about TPMs in the marketplace. First of all, the provide important market definition. You know what you're getting from a BluRay or Kindle product. Secondly, the market allows consumers to choose whether or not they want those products on those terms. Chris' wife is clearly okay with Kindle TPMs, while he is not. Delightful. <br /><br />I wonder if Kindle is suffering from the fact that their TPMs "frustrate" honest concumers?<br /><br />Anyway, the "best comment of the thread" award goes to the drinking game person. That made me laugh out loud.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04803855978550653817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-5121890174171384722010-11-12T09:02:58.857-05:002010-11-12T09:02:58.857-05:00"It might as well not have been in the bill, ..."It might as well not have been in the bill, and I could still do it with the permission."<br />Pieter that's a great point , and why you're unlikely to get a response from tpm John.<br />If It's legal it should be legal regardless of tpm's. Tpm protection is another layer of law we don't need.<br />John tries to throw out trespassing signs as flawed as the analogy is, I guess that means we should be putting up don't assault me signs.Gruesomehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13993466573477002853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-88395687335279645192010-11-12T07:35:22.228-05:002010-11-12T07:35:22.228-05:00@Sandy,
Those who commit copyright infringement a...@Sandy,<br /><br />Those who commit copyright infringement are not bothered by TPMs. Most of them don't see the TPM to begin with (since they've already been stripped by the time they get the files), and the few that do are laughing over the simplicity of breaking them.<br /><br />The people who are bothered by TPMs are the honest customers who actually buy their books/cds/dvds/blu-rays.I encounter it daily when I'm forced to watch the same preview I've seen 100s of times, because some idiot thought it was a good idea to make them unskippable, and it's illegal to make a dvd player that ignores that warning. I encounter it when I want to play a dvd on my Linux machine, and find that doing so is illegal due to the anti-circumvention laws. I encounter it when I want to rip my dvd to my hard-drive so I can play it from my media server rather than risk scratching my disk with use.<br /><br />Anti-circumvention laws don't accomplish anything. They make something that was already illegal a little bit more illegal, and at the same time frustrate honest purchasing customers. They don't make much sense to begin with, but when they make legal day to day customer activities illegal they work counter productive, because they erode the respect that people have for copyright law.<br /><br />Like Gruesome, I too am a strong supporter of copyright, and I believe that eroding people's respect for copyright with anti-circumvention laws is a bad move.Pieter Hulshoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01828192402728597793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-17434942629068045002010-11-12T02:25:38.422-05:002010-11-12T02:25:38.422-05:00The bill decriminalizes specific acts around conte...<i>The bill decriminalizes specific acts around content, as long as the content owner gives permission in the transfer. Why is that so difficult to understand?</i><br /><br />That's not what bills are supposed to do. Bills are supposed to criminalize certain acts, <i>unless</i> the content owner gives permission. What use is an exception to copyright if I need the content owner's permission to use it? It might as well not have been in the bill, and I could still do it with the permission.Pieter Hulshoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01828192402728597793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-55977119104356387422010-11-11T18:31:06.563-05:002010-11-11T18:31:06.563-05:00Rule #41: A commenter references Sony rootkit: tak...Rule #41: A commenter references Sony rootkit: take 2 shots.The Internet Copyright Discussion Drinking Gamenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-71486269187019279202010-11-11T18:04:11.522-05:002010-11-11T18:04:11.522-05:00Not to mention labeling every one as "free c...Not to mention labeling every one as "free culture", I'm a photographer, I'm a strong believer in copyright and strong deterrents to copyright infringement. But this continued assault against consumer rights that Degen thinks ends at the purchase is an affront to consumers but also to creators.<br />As a creator I and many others realize that tpm's are largely beyond our control.<br />It's just another tool to make consumers pay more than once and to take control of creators work.<br />trying to tag me as copy left is absurd since I don't think the current bill goes far enough to fight infringement.<br />I guess that makes me a copy left/right extremist.<br />What I really am is an advocate for a healthy symbiotic relationship between consumer and creator.<br />If there isn't balance both loose.<br />If consumers think they're being short changed, if it's not true, does it matter?Gruesomehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13993466573477002853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-1826082308978408282010-11-11T17:48:40.859-05:002010-11-11T17:48:40.859-05:00@sandy and there were real communists spies during...@sandy and there were real communists spies during the McCarty era as well, doesn't mean paranoia justifies everything.Gruesomehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13993466573477002853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-58970661090840038892010-11-11T17:02:19.898-05:002010-11-11T17:02:19.898-05:00should read "are real"....should read "are real"....Scrawleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-73996929165182182812010-11-11T16:35:53.415-05:002010-11-11T16:35:53.415-05:00Right Gruesome. The Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny ...Right Gruesome. The Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny and Santa a real but there's no such thing as the Pirate Party.Sandy Crawleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-91530190852690117092010-11-11T16:14:54.515-05:002010-11-11T16:14:54.515-05:00Chris this is John's mo, try to marginalize ev...Chris this is John's mo, try to marginalize everyone who'd like balanced copyright. Even those who'd support strong copyright protections with clear fair use provisions.<br />John sees "free culture theorists" behind every bush.<br />Consumers wishing to backup a game or use a media server have been brain washed by the "free culture theorists" and it will be no time at all before they're downloading huge libraries of creative works illegally.<br />It's all a big conspiracy surrounding the copy left. Perhaps John could chair an investigation into these people. A Joe McCarthy for the copy left scare, a committee for anti-copyright activities. BOO!Gruesomehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13993466573477002853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-28214040749483524012010-11-11T15:32:08.073-05:002010-11-11T15:32:08.073-05:00@Sandy
While I'm inclined, personally, to bel...@Sandy<br /><br />While I'm inclined, personally, to believe that the current method of determining fair dealing used by the supreme court is enough to make that not a concern, I can understand that people would want some clarification on what would constitute education fair dealing.<br /><br />But to be perfectly honest, I'm not overly sure what all the concerns are about it, and my main concern with C-32 is the TPM provisions, so I haven't looked that much into it. Doesn't mean I don't occasionally play devil's advocate to try and get more information on what the problem is, but that hasn't produced much in the way of getting the concerns.Chris Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-29883090057027702452010-11-11T15:17:53.115-05:002010-11-11T15:17:53.115-05:00@Chris,
My posts here don't relate the treatm...@Chris,<br /><br />My posts here don't relate the treatment of TPMs in the draft bill. My concerns are the sections that weaken compensation for various uses in education. As I have noted here and elsewhwere, the behaviour of the educational community around this issue strongly contradicts those who aver that there's no threat there.Sandy Crawleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38495605.post-22940034311022470412010-11-11T14:37:02.166-05:002010-11-11T14:37:02.166-05:00Hm...changing ideas part way through. I'll fi...Hm...changing ideas part way through. I'll fix some of my mistakes here.<br /><br />"the person you want to buy your" should be "the person you want to buy your work"<br /><br />"I have actually read that section of the bill, and I don't think it does that remotely." should be "I have actually read that section of the bill, and I don't think it does that remotely allow users to use the things in the way fair dealings says they can, and there are more than enough experts I've read that agree with that one person saying differently isn't really going to change my mind."Chris Anoreply@blogger.com